TRANSCRIPT ~ EPISODE 16

EPISODE 16: Pragmatic dreaming, with London Hong

Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “Yunta de Oro” composed by Osvaldo Ruggiero and performed and recorded by Tango Bardo | Image Credit: Irina Novak

LIZ: You've never taken a break from tango, have you?

LONDON: I have never, no. Maybe a week, okay, maybe one week or... but it's not really a break because I feel like, okay,
maybe when I was in school that I had to study for midterm or final, then maybe I took, maybe- but even then I think I went to the milonga anyway. But maybe one week- there was one point, I still remember, one point that I thought, "man, it's just, I don't know, I don't feel like dancing much, so maybe I should just [stop] doing it." I think that I did that for a weekend and then I feel like going back.

[MUSIC]

LIZ ID INTRO:
I'm Liz Sabatiuk and this is Humans of Tango, where we explore what tango has to teach through the experiences of those who dance it.

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LIZ SCRIPT:
I got to know London Hong, just a little, at a tango festival in Baltimore sometime around 2014. London lived in New York, but he was known among DC social dancers for his talent and his relentless drive to improve his dance. Both the talent and the drive were on full display at that festival, together with a friendly, down-to-earth disposition. But before London became a rising star with an intercity reputation, he was an international student trying partner dancing for the first time.

LONDON:
I started [at] this studio called Dance Sport in New York. They don't run it anymore because of the COVID. It's where, I think, Al Pacino learned his Tango for [a] Scent of a Women.

LIZ: Wow, what a claim to fame.

[LIZ ASIDE] No disrespect to Al Pacino.

[LAUGHS] Anyway, that was the marketing point of the studio. But first, this studio taught many different dancers, like Salsa, Lindy, Swing, Cha Cha, Waltz, and stuff like that. They also taught Hustle. Before I was like, okay, I want to learn some kind of partner dancing. I looked up some information and I found this studio. I think I started with, like, some kind of unlimited beginner's package kind of stuff so that I could try all the stuff. To be honest, at first tango wasn't very fun. You know, it's slow, and you know, like Hustle, you turn and you move, maybe music is maybe a little more, like, rhythmic and all. But then, like very soon after, I think I got to see the video of Forever Tango. And I remember the number was "A Evaristo Carriego" by Carlos Gavito and Marcela Durán. I saw that video. I mean, it's a legendary video, everybody knows.

[LIZ ASIDE] Linked in the show notes in case somehow you missed it.

LONDON:
I was like, oh my God, I want to do that. He seemed- like, Gavito...he looked a little older, so maybe I can enjoy this thing until when I get old. And, I don't know, like after I just, like, quit doing other dances and just, like, all the way tango and the more I learn, the more I do, the more I love it.

I love dancing in general. Even, I remember when I was like really young, I remember I did some of this kind of K-pop band dancing for the school... It's not a prom - Korean school doesn't have prom - but like some kind of events. Because I remember when I was really young, at some point, I kind of wanted to become a dancer, but I felt like I was too old to start. It's so ridiculous to hear now. I was still in my teen, uh, teenage, but like, you know, I think it's because of this elitism in Korean education, like, okay, you've got to start very early if you want to be successful with music or, like, art. So I felt like I'm too late. Maybe I was like, you know, 15, 16, and I felt, like, too old for doing that. So I never tried, which I kind of regret, but yeah.

LIZ: But now here you are.

LONDON: Here I am, yes. [LAUGHTER]

LIZ: And then the video, I guess there was an aesthetic part of it that drew you in and the lines and the drama. I mean, Forever Tango is, like, a lot of drama, right?

LONDON: Yeah, it's the whole thing, I think. First of all, I think the music fits me very well. I don't know. I'm kind of- maybe I'm a dramatic person, so I love this drama in the music. It's like so, sort of, I don't know, grand and, like, you know, it's a huge scale of like orchestra and all the emotions that you see, you know, Forever Tango is like theater show. So that for me, it was like, I was like so wowed - aesthetic-wise, I was very, like, this looks so cool. It's kind of simple, yeah. It's so cool. It's the whole thing. Like, the way they dress, it was, you know, very sleek and the music and the emotion and passion kind of thing. As any kind of art form, it's a way to express who you are kind of thing. And maybe I never, until that point, I never got to experience expressing this drama in me, or any kind of emotion. Like, so, maybe I never really understood what art is, really. Maybe that point that I felt like maybe I was- "Okay. Oh, my God. I want to do that. Maybe I can do that! 'Cause then it doesn't look like that I have to stretch my legs and make like a ballet dancer's, like, doing thing. Maybe I can do that. I don't have to be so flexible, maybe." [LAUGHS] I was really thinking this stuff. So yeah. Yeah. So then I started doing it and I loved it.

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I had, like, for a long time, the inner, um, debate, whether I should pursue the dream of becoming a tango dancer, you know,, like, as like a full-time tango dancer or should I just enjoy as a hobby. But then somehow I felt like I should pursue this. I think that one point was actually because I started learning bandoneon and I felt like maybe I can do these two together. It's kind of silly, but at first, because, you know, usually all the work in tango dancing happens in the evening. You teach in the evening, you go to milonga at night. So during daytime, maybe I could practice bandoneon.

Before I only had, like, tango dancing and that was maybe not enough for me. I think one reason was because I saw so many friends or colleagues who sort of regret it. You know, some of my friends, you know, they quit their job and jump into tango teaching and all that. And after maybe a few years, they kind of regret, you know, not really enjoying tango anymore. They lost their passion and love for tango. But then after that, they cannot go back where they were because, you know, already in a trap that to make a living, you know, they have to teach and do the work. But then they get tired and, you know, going to a milonga and enjoying it is probably... it's just, they just want to go home and, you know, take a rest. And I saw many cases of this - literally, I saw so many of these. I mean, they're people you probably also know, you know-

LIZ: You don't have to name names unless you want to. [LAUGHS]

LONDON: I cannot name names. But, you know, that sort of put me back, "okay, maybe I should like rethink, think over to become a tango dancer. I don't want to regret later on, so maybe I should not just jump into tango teaching." Because, you know, becoming a full-time tango dancer means you have to teach in general, unless you're, like, you belong to a certain tango company and you tour and, you know, give a performance, like, every night. But, you know, usually that's not the case. You have to teach to make a living. So it was tough for a long time. But then I started learning bandoneon and I was just so in love with doing that. And just somehow, like, okay, I should probably do this because, you know, now I have two, so if I get tired of doing one thing, maybe I can sort of rely on the other part.

LIZ SCRIPT:
London's decision to dedicate himself to tango full-time led directly to another major life decision - whether to stay in New York or return to his hometown of Seoul, South Korea.

LONDON:
I lived in New York a little more than 10 years - I think, 12, 13 years, I don't know. I feel New York as like my second home. I feel very comfortable being in New York. So I was a, you know, international student and then I worked for a company, so, you know, with a working visa and student visa kind of stuff. Working in the office, you know, takes a lot of energy. And, you know, after that, you know, you don't really have energy to work on your stuff, like, you know, 'cause if I decide to become a tango dancer, I want to work on my technique and you have to do rehearsals and stuff. I was also thinking about joining the Army - U.S. Army - because they had a program called MAVNI, which they allow foreign aliens to join the military and they give us citizenship. But you got to serve for about, like, four years or something, I think. I considered that and actually took some process of joining, but eventually I kind of gave up 'cause, again, the same reason that I had to stay, you know, many years, which is a sort of critical time to work on my tango skills, basically, because, you know, I wanted to start as early as possible - like, people in Argentina they start when they're very young, so... One other thing that made me sort of move back to Korea was, as a professional tango dancer, like, what I can offer and what I can be.

I don't necessarily experience so much of racism in tango, like, personally, BUT it's- when it comes to me presenting myself as Argentine tango dancer, 'cause, you know, it's- in a community you have, like, Argentine dancers or Argentine lookalike dancers.

LIZ: So you think people are like still looking for the stereotype?

LONDON: Oh, you know, yeah, it exists. And that's something that I experienced personally, because, you know, I gave performances and all that. But if I do that in South Korea, you know, I don't have that problem, you know? Like, you know, and New York is very, very open. And I- again, I love New York and I love people in New York. But still, you know, there are people who have this racism inside, like, you know, that they don't necessarily always show up, but it comes out, you know, [time to] time. And working like this, it's, you know, 'cause it has a name already, name suggest like Argentine tango, you know, like it's, it's from Argentina. But, you know, there are many Argentine dancers in the States. It was just kind of, like, SWOT analysis.

[LIZ ASIDE] SWOT as in strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats.

LONDON: You know, and I, I probably could survive, but at the same time, maybe I could achieve better things - I don't have to feel any kind of stereotype if I actually work in South Korea. That was also one other reason that I came back because, you know, if I do it, I want to do good and I want to be successful, you know...not financially per se, but like I want to, you know- only evaluated it as a as a skills and, you know, level and tango itself, not the look of the person. So, I mean, you know, this is- again, this is not the only reason. It's just all the things combined. I mean, okay, I probably better move back to Seoul and, you know, develop and build my stuff there.

LIZ: It sounds like it was a hard decision, though.

LONDON: It was very tough 'cause, you know, again, I felt very compatible... it fits me very well, like culture-wise.
Just the- this, this Asian culture that has somehow, you know, they care so much about what other people think. Um, but something that I love about New York is that they do care a little bit, but it's a lot less. But they very- are very actually sharing, like, what you do, if you do it well, if you do hard and, you know, they really acknowledge your effort and the dedication. That's sort of how I felt in New York. So I loved, I loved, living in New York, but just um, yeah, I couldn't stay.

[MUSIC]

So race-wise I'm just one of them, so, you know, I really don't have a problem of that - but here has other problems. [LAUGHTER] Again, you know, um, I'm sort of - how can I say - you know, I'm new, like, out of nowhere, right? And I didn't really visit or, like, travel Korea to dance or anything. So, you know, a lot of people don't really know me. The way I teach and the way I approach dancing is also very different from what people here were doing.

LIZ: Huh. Can you tell me how- something- some example of how it's different?

LONDON: I think it's something that I feel always, you know, 'cause like different city or different country has, you know, different community. But usually in this communities have- I don't know how to put it, the- yeah, like, initiator or, like, opinion leader - someone who sort of lead the communities, sort of, in a direction. For example, I don't know, I live in a town, you know, I'm the only teacher and there are, like, maybe 100 students. And if I bring certain master and me, you know, that's like the only information they have. And so this community has certain type of, I don't know, maybe dancing style or and even culture - like, the way they think. And I think that was very evident when I came back to Seoul. For example, competition is so important here. The reason why I compete is-I mean, again, you know, yes, I have- I want to have a good opportunity. It's a good way to sort of show my work, but it's so important on my resume here. It is culture, Asian culture.

LIZ: That was one of my questions! So thank you for answering that before I had a chance to ask.

LONDON: So the Asian- you know, I'm not like talking bad about, like, Asian people, you know, it's just different, different culture. You know, they care a lot about what's on the paper, maybe the first place in certain championships. So in a way, okay, if I go back, I probably have to join the competition and work it out, 'cause, you know, I was in the States I never competed, not even once. I mean, competition was happening in San Francisco, so maybe there was another reason, but here I knew it was very important. People care about the title of being, becoming a champion. The level of dancing is very good. Like, all my friends, they always have very good time in the milonga. But in a way, it's a... in a way, it feels like they dance only in the box, like, they don't they don't feel comfortable doing things- you know, go out of box. Uh...and I'm not saying anywhere is better, just, it's different. And that's something that I feel in Seoul, 'cause, you know, I was so- I was sort of an alien here, like doing things, teaching certain things, and they're like, "Okay, how?" Like, for example, I said, like, "maybe relaxing your knees... bend your knees maybe a little bit." And they say, "no, but I straighten my knees" because they were so impacted by
okay, you have to keep your lines" and this kind of stuff. So it's the little things, but it's a big - yeah.

LIZ SCRIPT:
London may relax his knees from time to time, but he never forgets about the aesthetics that first drew him to tango. For London, inner experience and outward expression are linked. He also seeks to cultivate a synergy between social improvisation and choreographed performance.

LONDON:
So first, you know, the appeal was like the whole thing, like, the the drama, the storytelling, and probably the whole set with the music and the dialogue between the two dancers. And then later on, you know, when I was so into social dancing and then I experienced this, you know, I don't know, you know, like, all these words, like "tangasm" - whatever, you know, people say, right? Yeah, I felt that I love doing that. I love being in that state, you know, obviously-

LIZ: Wait for for anyone who might not have heard the term "tangasm," is that like a state of flow, would you say?

LONDON: I think it's the word that combined... tango and orgasm, right? So, you know, it feels like so good and maybe so relieved and everything, you know, all stress is gone and you feel, like, maybe euphoric, I don't know, and that you feel so happy and satisfied somehow. And I refer this kind of state after dancing. And you feel so connected to the other person, you know? So this part of tango also very important. And I felt it was so good experience. Um, and I realized that, "oh, okay, maybe this kind of technique and the aesthetic not necessarily go together."

But at the same time, as I work on my technique and all that, I don't know, I always felt like I want to look good...If I do certain things, I wanna look good. From outside, when you look at certain things, when something is beautiful, something is harmonious, you know, then, you know, there's some kind of science in it, right? So I feel the same thing - that dancing, you should look for the beauty and aesthetic out of it. And I think that can enhance how you feel and how your partner can feel. You know, we cheer for all these masters from the look, you know, you don't necessarily dance with these masters, but you see these people and, wow, they are amazing, right? You know, you only see the videos and you only see the performance and you get awed from outside. I think it's very beautiful to see, you know, like, Tango Escenario, for example, like stage tango, you know, like good piece and hard work. I don't know, like, I get, I get moved.

Good improvisation is the same. And I try to find a way that can enhance the other area. For example, I learn, you know, choreography and doing things, I try to find what points I can connect to my social dancing. Even like, for example, in the choreography, you have some kind of acting and, you know, being in the moment - you know, concentrating on your partner, or just like giving a gaze. And that can also maybe apply to social dancing a little bit - maybe a different level of intensity, but, you know, it's- or, you know, during the improvisation, you find a certain way of moving. Okay, so I can make a pattern that I can sort of stretch out to make a nice movement for choreography.

[MUSIC]

LIZ SCRIPT:
Since moving back to South Korea, London has competed and placed in multiple tango championships and opened a tango academy with his dance partner, Sol. Right now, their primary focus is attracting the next generation of dancers.

LIZ: So right now, the two of you, the two of you opened the school together and you're running everything and taking care of the space and classes and promotion and all of the things. Got it.

LONDON: Everything. The YouTube channel that we do is, she does the editing and everything of the videos.

LIZ: Nice. Those are great. I was gonna ask you who came up with those - like, especially the little shorts are, like, so fun.

LONDON: So one of the one of the vision that we have is that we want to approach to non-tango people - especially in their 20s or 30s, the younger crowd. So that's one reason why we make videos kind of funny and fun and cool-

LIZ: And sometimes dancing to pop music, right?

LONDON: That too. Yes. You know, you know, that works. So... [LAUGHS]

LIZ: Yeah. So, to reach new audiences who might not necessarily identify as interested in tango.

LONDON: Because the Korea- the tango scene was established through hobby club. It's just a[n] online community and about, like, 20 years ago, it was a kind of hot thing. But now that age group literally aged all together. So, like, all newcomers were always these friends, so, for example, now in their 40s and their 50s are like probably the most group in tango in Korea. Really, if somebody's in their 20s, it's like, it's like almost non-existent. So I feel like it's, it's almost a crisis. Um, and as a tango professional and as a part of community, I feel like this is very important.

One thing that I really respect and I admire a lot about the States' tango community was the university and college association with the tango community, which, you know- you have, like, a very good channel of producing younger dancers. And here, literally, there's like none.

LIZ: Is it harder on a, like, a bureaucratic level or is it just a lack of interest in the students?

LONDON: It's just, yeah, I mean, it's probably for both. But, you know, people just don't know about it. And, you know, at least if there is like student club, then maybe they see, "okay, this exists." So that's just a, one vision that we try to work on, you know, to approach the more, more younger crowd and get them to start tango dancing, and make them to stay. Yeah, but I want to, I want to- I really miss New York. I want to go back. I miss my friends...I miss people. So one day I will definitely go visit. Maybe with a, with a trophy.

[LAUGHTER]

LIZ: With a trophy?! If you get a trophy then you can tour, right? Is that what you're thinking? You know... a victory tour.

LONDON: That would be like a dream come true. But, yeah. I do my best. We'll see.

LIZ SCRIPT:
I'm happy to report that since this interview, London and Sol have secured at least two trophies in Asian regional championships for their stage tango performances, which means they'll be headed to the final round of the 2023 World Tango Championship in Buenos Aires.

Here's to putting in the work, however we want that to look or feel. Thank you, London, and congratulations. And thanks to Tango Bardo for the recording that accompanies this episode, "Yunta de Oro," composed by Osvaldo Ruggiero and made famous by Osvaldo Pugliese.

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