TRANSCRIPT ~ EPISODE 20

EPISODE 20: Flowing together, with Avik Basu

Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “Sin Palabras” by Mariano Mores, with lyrics by Enrique Santos Discépolo and performed by Aníbal Troilo y Su Orquesta Típica with Alberto Marino | Image Credit: Steven Thull

[MUSIC]

LIZ ID INTRO:
I'm Liz Sabatiuk and this is Humans of Tango, where we explore what tango has to teach through the experiences of those who dance it.

LIZ SCRIPT:
Avik Basu and I have only met in person once, and very briefly, but he's been on my tango radar for many years as a highly respected DJ, teacher, organizer, and social dancer. I didn't know anything about Avik's life outside of tango until the day I joined well over a thousand people in taking a survey he helped create about the inner experience of tango.

If you're interested in hearing more about the Inner Experience survey, stay tuned for an upcoming special edition of Humans of Tango featuring Avik and his survey co-creator and friend Mitra Martin. And allow me to suggest subscribing to this podcast so you'll be notified when that episode drops.

In the process of taking the survey, I learned that Avik works as an environmental psychologist at the University of Michigan. I didn't know much about environmental psychology before interviewing Avik, but since we spoke, I've felt like it's a magnifying glass - or maybe a fisheye lens - I can't stop looking through. Our conversation expanded my concept of environment to include everything we encounter outside ourselves. That means we can see music, small talk, and other people as features of our environment. Somehow this way of seeing the world gives me an intoxicating sense of possibility for how each of us can help shape our shared reality.

So let's start by hearing how Avik's environment, so broadly defined, shaped him.

AVIK:
My parents immigrated from West Bengal, India, in, uh, 1970, and they came to Michigan. I think, seven years later I was born and I grew up in the suburbs of Detroit. As a son of immigrants, I kind of had two worlds that I lived in. I lived in sort of my Indian American world, where all my parents' friends and family were. And of course, in India, it's a very social culture, very interdependent culture. So they were sort of my extended family because my parents were one of the few members of their family that came to the States. Actually, my first language, even though I grew up in the States, was Bengali. And then, of course, I had my school friends and people I met through community things or sports.

It was a fine upbringing. I think later in life, I realized that it's a little bit unusual, perhaps, to be so divided and to have the Indian American life and then the American life.

One of the ways that I really enjoyed connecting to people in my American life was through music. When I was 10, I was given the option to pick an instrument. My family friend was an aficionado of the violin, and so I kind of thought, oh, I want to do that. Maybe for the first four or five years, I didn't really care that much about it. But then something happened where I felt like, instead of my being told to play some music, I felt like, "oh, I'm making music." And when that transition happened, it became an obsession. I loved playing violin and had a dream of being an orchestral violinist. But then at that point- I had started when I was 10, and I realized that people who were orchestral violinists started probably five years earlier and that made a big difference with technique. So I kind of put that on the shelf, but I also developed another dream of being a conductor. And I say all that because that dream of being a conductor eventually led to my fascination with tango, because I think both are art forms that use gestures to express music and emotion.

I think my upbringing led me to develop skills that, um, fostered learning. Maybe I would even go so far as to say that part of the reason that I wanted to get better at things and even develop the discipline for getting better at, say, violin, was in a way to be accepted as part of a community. So, in order to feel that form of acceptance, it may have required me to practice. You know, for violin, you can't just pick it up and play. You got to put in the work to learn how to make it sound good and then eventually, you get to a point where you can have a little bit more freedom with it and you can express yourself. And I think that is true of many art forms. There's a learning curve, and you kind of have to put in the work.

It's possible for everyone to appreciate and express themselves through tango, but there's a tension there because many people will say it's one of the harder dances to learn and, um, when you go into a milonga, often there is a bit of judgmentality about who's good and who's not and I think it would be nice to see the evolution of tango lead to a place where there's less of that judgmentality, and that the instruction of tango get to a place where it's a little bit easier for people to access tango right from the beginning instead of having to put in the years before you're sort of "good" enough to enjoy it. And that's a thing that I've been evolving on myself over the years and, and I think it's a worthy point of discussion in our community.

I have always thought that tango is- certainly is a tradition, but my own experience with tango has been fairly non-traditional. I grew up in suburban Michigan, learned tango as a university student in what was then a tiny little club, from a Russian woman and an Indian guy-

[LIZ ASIDE] referring to Yelena Sinelnikova and Ramu Pyreddy

AVIK: -and then I just learned in the States - I traveled around the states and I did go to Buenos Aires several times too, but given that I didn't really speak Spanish well and given that I sort of look different than Argentine people, I didn't connect to that culture in the same way as I connected to whatever bohemian tango culture that was growing in the 2000s in the States.

When I hear debates about, like, "oh, this is the right way to dance tango" or this or that, I generally tend to avoid it, because I feel like every tango that comes from a person is an expression of that person's intent, desire to express themselves in some way through this art form. I think whatever evolves from one's experience, one's body is part of what contributes to the beauty of the tango collectively.

LIZ: It sounds to me like tango is a tool. It's like you've discovered this form of expression, through your investment in it you've earned the right to use it as a tool for expression, and you don't really need to worry about it beyond that.

AVIK: Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, exactly.... So it's a beautiful place to be in this moment.

LIZ: I love it, I love it - very free.

AVIK: And each person is going to be drawn to different things in tango and I think that is an indication of the desire that people have, whatever they do want to express. So I think allowing for people to go through whatever phase, where they're, like, establishing themselves in whatever way - whether it's technique or how it looks or all of that stuff - being inclusive of that then allows for space later on for more creativity to happen. Because this is a long journey. It can take years, like, decades, and you really want people to stay during the course of that journey, stay long enough so that when they get to their whatever - 10s, or 20s, or 30s, or 50s - they are supported, they feel included, and that their art - whatever that is - is appreciated.

[MUSIC]

LIZ SCRIPT:
Alongside the philosophy of freedom and inclusion that Avik has cultivated over the years, he also brings to tango practical tools and insights gained from his work in environmental psychology.

AVIK:
We look at how environments influence behavior, influence our capacity to pay attention to things, how we process information. In the other direction, we see how our behaviors influence the environment in the ways we think about climate change, for example.

With respect to tango, I think the direction from how the environment influences behavior is what's interesting. For many years I've DJed, for example, and I think about how do I create an environment that is supportive to dancers. So take something like familiarity. People like to dance to music that is familiar to them, but then people also like to explore. It's sort of like a child who spends a lot of time around the mother and then once in a while needs to go out and, you know, explore a bit on their own, but still feel safe coming back.

Teaching is sort of the same thing. One of the things I like to do in classes is not to have a lot of talking. Having people try things out in their body is, is really important because that's the way the body's going to learn.

You know, one of the hardest things I find people have to do in tango in the beginning is, like, learning to stand on one foot. At some point I switched to letting that go and having people stand on both feet and let the expression of the music come more from that place of comfort rather than trying to get them to first stand on one foot and, like, have all that technique correct and then express themselves after the technique is over. So in every step, there's a moment where you could put yourself on both feet. And I found that as a practice, if you learn how to really move your body from a 50-50 position to a 100-0 position, that actually helps people start to move their bodies more comfortably, more naturally, and in a way that's idiosyncratic to them, too.

That's another thing about tango, that in the beginning, like, it felt like it had to look and feel a certain way. And then as the years went on, it became more about like, well, what does this person's body do in tango? And how can that fit into this tradition that we have, but not discount the originality and the creativity that's sort of embedded in that person's body.

Anyway, environmental psychology has informed some of those ideas about how to create supportive environments for people's capacity to pay attention, capacity to process information, to learn new things. So, like, attention, just like a muscle, you know, if you work the muscle a lot, the muscle gets tired and needs time to recuperate, needs nutrients to recuperate. Attention is similar. Like, you can't just keep paying attention without any expectation of fatigue. And the way in which to restore attention is really based on being able to rest it in a particular way. Without getting into too much detail, it turns out that being in natural environments is really a great way to restore one's capacity for attention and so a lot of the research has been done in that domain, but I've long been curious whether tango serves that same purpose. Because what's happening, I think, when you dance and you're not ruminating on all the things that are going on in your life is that you give all those topics of rumination some chance to rest, and you're able to let it go. And that then allows you to feel recharged and ready to tackle whatever topics your attentional capacity needs to focus on later.

So, I think that that's, like, really one of the great gifts of tango, perhaps the invisible gifts of tango. I'm not sure I've heard many people say it's like, "oh, well, it's actually a tool for practicing attention in the same way that you could sit and meditate." And you're doing it in a shared setting, not only with your partner, but with a lot of other people. And it's powerful that way. And if you think about like environments where you don't need to pick up your phone, I mean, tango is a rare environment that allows that kind of connecting to other people and allowing you to restore your attentional capacity.

Even though I like a lot of the códigos that we have-

[LIZ ASIDE] códigos are tango social norms

AVIK: -I think once in a while it's interesting to experiment with something different just to see, like, how does that feel? And the silent hour thing-

[LIZ ASIDE] referring to an experiment at the 2018 Ann Arbor Tango Marathon

AVIK: -really comes from just a bunch of conversations that accumulate into some sort of insight. The conversations were "I don't really know what to say in between the tandas. I don't really know how to talk to people in tango, I'm just here to dance." Like, that, that kind of dialogue I've heard many times over the years. So at some point, I just had the thought like, what if we didn't have to talk? How would that change the experience?

And so we tried it several years ago for just an hour, right? Because again, I believe in this thing of like, you know, let's keep it familiar for most of the time and just, like, put a little bit of change in there so that we can see how people react to it. So what we did is we just said, like, you know, we're gonna be quiet for, for one whole hour... no talking in between the tandas, during the tandas. And we had live musical performances as cortinas.

[LIZ ASIDE] Cortinas are musical breaks between the sets of songs for dancing known as tandas.

AVIK: And, you know, I really enjoyed that, but I think the reaction was sort of 50-50. At that point, I'd never experienced anything like that. I don't know if it had been done anywhere else before. But I think the sort of 50-50 response was expected. Like, some people will feel like, no, we just want to do it the way we're familiar with. And then some people are more open to kind of different ways of doing it. And then it might depend on context - it just might be that night they wanted something more familiar. Anyway, that kind of experimentation, I think, is really important in tango, particularly since we have transplanted this dance outside the culture of Buenos Aires. I think it's appropriate to see what culture fits us here in the States, or wherever
one is dancing.

[MUSIC FADING IN - LYRICS IN SPANISH]

Nació de ti...
buscando una canción que nos uniera,
y hoy sé que es cruel brutal -quizá-
el castigo que te doy.
Sin palabras
esta música va a herirte,
dondequiera que la escuche tu traición...
La noche más absurda, el día más triste.
Cuando estés riendo, o cuando llore tu ilusión.

Perdóname si es Dios,
quien quiso castigarte al fin...
Si hay llantos que pueden perseguir así,
si estas notas que nacieron por tu amor,
al final son un cilicio que abre heridas de una historia... ¡Son suplicios, son memorias...
fantoche herido, mi dolor, se alzará, cada vez,
que oigas esta canción!

LIZ: When you were talking about attention, I was thinking it's- at least, for me, I feel like tango is most restorative when I can be in a flow state, which I think is kind of what you were describing. And if I'm in my head, or I'm worried about small talk, or if I'm hosting an event and I'm worried about how everybody's feeling, or I have a weird interaction with someone and I'm overthinking it or whatever, it's not a restorative activity. But if I am having experiences of connecting with people and connecting with the music and my body, it is restorative. And so I- it seems reasonable to, um, imagine that there could be environmental factors that could facilitate that flow state for people, you know? I guess that's what I like about the idea of experimenting. Um... [LAUGHS]

AVIK: I love how you put that.

LIZ: I don't know, I think a silent milonga sounds cool.

AVIK: I think so too, and it's precise- I'm glad you used the flow terminology because that is kind of what I've been looking for in tango from the beginning. Because I - I'll tell you a little story. So, like, when I was in high school I played in orchestra and the orchestra was kind of a trainer orchestra for the Detroit Symphony which is the professional orchestra in town and we were able to play side-by-side with the Detroit Symphony members, so, like, I'd be sitting right next to a professional player and that moment I think I'd never experienced anything like that in my life, where I felt absolutely in flow, like nothing could go wrong. Every note I played felt like it was supported and engaged and there was just, like, no thought whatsoever, it's just a can-do kind of feeling for the whole time. It's incredible. I felt lifted and, you know, I kind of wanted to be a musician so I could experience that all the time. Of course it doesn't always feel that way, I'm sure, but that infected me in a way that made me want to create that in tango later on.

So how do you create that, that flow state when you're dancing, or if you're organizing a milonga, how do you create it for everyone else around you? If you're DJing how do you create that flow state in the music? And I think minimizing distractions is sort of the key. So let's take music, for example. If you play too many things that are not familiar, the dancers might be distracted by their inability to dance well and they get in their heads. Or you do a milonga that's, like, completely different from what we recognize as a milonga, like códigos and all that are thrown out and we have no basis for how to engage at the milonga. Well, obviously your mind is going to be filled with thoughts of, like, "What do I do here?" So you can't really engage that flow state. So, flow state comes from having practiced behaviors in a way that they're sort of automatic - they're easy, you don't have to think about them. So we want to take advantage of that so that the growth can happen in places that are desirable instead of getting stuck on these distractions.

LIZ SCRIPT:
Psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihaly coined the term flow to describe, “a state in which people are so involved in an activity that nothing else seems to matter.” A two-thousand twenty-one publication by Charles Walker - linked in the show notes - categorizes flow experiences into solitary and social and specifically explores the benefits of social flow, which Walker defines as, “a shared, contagious form of flow associated with highly interdependent and collaborative group processes.”

I am not a doctor of psychology, but after reading Walker’s description, it seems safe to classify tango as a strong potential source of social flow. From the two roles we dance to the structures and dynamics of classes, milongas, and communities, interdependent and collaborative group processes are everywhere in tango. And while there’s no guarantee we’ll experience social flow, I suspect it may be what keeps many of us dancing over the years. 

Walker’s chapter got me wondering how social flow interacts with the learning process. Avik’s flow experience with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra sparked an artistic journey that’s still going, decades later. Part of that journey has been to nurture social flow in tango environments. Another important part of Avik’s journey began when he discovered how much he could learn by flowing in the follower’s role.  

LIZ: You said before that you've been following a lot. Did you start learning the leading role when you first started dancing?

AVIK: Yeah, in the beginning I think, like, maybe the first six months or so, like, exclusively leading, but I remember following fairly early. But I, I didn't do a lot of it. That said, even though I didn't follow much in the beginning, I think in the first few years of tango, I think I learned more from following a couple exceptional leaders than I did from all classes and etc. So I remember Alex Krebs actually led me once and it was just mind-blowing, like, how musical and precise and, uh, gentle but clear all of these things were, and I was like "How does that even happen?" And, like, I still don't know how he does what he does but now I have my own way of doing my own things and creating that sort of sensation. I remember in Buenos Aires I pulled out, like, a broken line of Spanish and tried to get Cacho Dante to lead me, and he did and that was exceptional. Just, like, it, it showed me so much, because tango is transmitted through the body. I mean you can use a lot of words to express what to do; you can use a lot of visual tools to show and then have someone mimic, but, like, to feel the connection in the body is something else entirely. Gustavo was another one.

[LIZ ASIDE] that's Gustavo Naveira - and you can learn more about him, Cacho Dante, and Alex Krebs through the show notes.

AVIK: He led me a few times in classes and it just, like, showed me how much grounding and power is possible in tango, but without force. I think for me it's about expression. How have these people learned to express themselves in tango and being able to share that. So as a leader I've come to a place in my dancing where I express myself in a particular way, but when I dance with someone as a follower they express themselves in a very different way and I find that fascinating and I find that meaningful to know that, like, we've all put in all of this time in this art form and all these beautiful, different things have come out of it.

I do feel like it's a very important skill to be able to have one person be in a role, in a lead role, and another person be in a follower role. It doesn't need to be tied to gender, but what's interesting is you can switch that in the moment, within the context of a song, and I find that to be quite interesting and generous. Like, "Oh, I give it to you," "Now I give it to you." And, like, we can switch roles as we go along, and how to make that seamless...

LIZ: Why do you think it's important to have a leader and a follower?

AVIK: I think that in my experience of dancing, when there is that structure, it allows for more flow state. Because, like, when you're, um, both talking, then listening becomes harder. And I think the beauty of tango is that when you're choosing to be in the leader's role, you are trying to be clear and comfortable and precise and you're navigating the space and you're telling the story of the music as you hear it and then when you're in the follower's role you get to not worry about some of those things and you get to express the music in your body, in the space, in the structure that's created by the lead. And I think that combination is sort of magical and the structure it creates allows for psychological flow, allows for, you know, attention restoration. It, it allows for the blankness of mind or if you want to go even further, it allows for ego transcendence.

As I kind of said before, I no longer take credit for whatever it is that happens in my dance. It, it sort of has happened as a result of many years of experience and what is beautiful about it is that I'm not doing it. And, and it's an amazing thing to just be part of this thing with everyone else.

LIZ SCRIPT:
Here’s to shaping and sharing environments where we can learn and express ourselves together.

Thank you, Avik, and thanks to the Internet Archive for the recording that accompanies this episode, “Sin Palabras,” by Mariano Mores with lyrics by Enrique Santos Discépolo and performed by Anibal Troilo y Su Orquesta Típica with Alberto Marino.

[MUSIC FADING IN - LYRICS IN SPANISH]

si estas notas que nacieron por tu amor,
al final son un cilicio que abre heridas de una historia... ¡Son suplicios, son memorias...
fantoche herido, mi dolor, se alzará, cada vez,
que oigas esta canción!