TRANSCRIPT ~ EPISODE 28

EPISODE 28: Roles and evolution - body and mind, with Brigitta Winkler

Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: “Margo,” by Armando Pontier with lyrics by Homero Expósito | Image Credit: Unknown

LIZ: Did you grow up in Berlin?

BRIGITTA: No, in the Black Forest area. And my grandmother used to be a ballroom dancer. And in the closets were these incredible, beautiful clothes. So when you couldn't find me, you need to go into the closet. You find me tucked behind the dresses, dreaming up that I am dancing.

[MUSIC]

LIZ ID INTRO:
I'm Liz Sabatiuk and this is Humans of Tango, where we explore what tango has to teach through the experiences of those who dance it.

LIZ SCRIPT:
That was Brigitta Winkler, European tango pioneer and mentor to many Humans of Tango, including at least two previously featured on this podcast: Aja Fenn, who you can hear from in episode 23, and Mitra Martin, who you can hear from in episode 26.

BRIGITTA:
Dancing was my dream, always, as long as I can think. I begged my parents, "please let me go to ballet." And parents brought me to ballet. It was a little tricky, it was not these days where you would go by car all the time, but I started to do my training. And I injured myself very early in the ballet training. And I think it's a good thing, because then I said, like, "whoa, you know, that body is not for granted. I cannot use it just like a machine." And I started to become interested in these Release techniques and modern dance.

In the '80s or '70s, when I was a young, young woman, I worked and was very interested in all the movement of feministic work. And we opened women's shelters in our little town. And I studied social work or social pedagogics. And, uh, there was a possibility for internship. And I said, like, "I want to go in a big city abroad." Problem was the language and everything, and I couldn't find something abroad. So the next big city was Berlin. They gave actually money for young people to come because it was an isolated island there-

[LIZ ASIDE] That's West Berlin.

And there were lots of empty spaces. So I could open a dance studio easier than in another town because all these empty spaces were available.

When I first saw tango, it was a Horizonte festival, a cultural festival in Berlin. It was actually in a big exhibition about Latin America culture. And there was this Grupo Malambo. And Malambo is that dance with the boleaderos, right? So that was the main act. But in between, there was a tango because they also, those were Argentines living in Paris. Alejandro Sedano, Coco Orlando Diaz, and the whole group. And also there was, like, live music and the bandoneons. It was like, wow. I was, like, just blown away. And I went backstage and I asked them, "what is it?" And they said, "well, Argentine tango, we live in Paris." And the next weekend I went to Paris. So that's that.

The bandoneon made a big impression on me, that kind of living animal there, WOO-WOO-WOO. And, um, and the dance too. And, Liz, I don't know why, because it was in these days when I look back and I remember some of those things I saw, it was very, "oh, I'm the woman and this is the guy." And I was a feminist in Birkenstocks, you know, never wearing heels and things like that. And I loved it. I loved it.

LIZ: Yeah. [LAUGHS] Okay, so that, that was one of my questions, actually. So that's funny that you're kinda...going there. So you were drawn to that postcard as well, like the aesthetic of it.

BRIGITTA: Yeah. I can say one thing, that I was always interested in moving together with someone. And the ballet didn't do it for me in that degree. I did a little ballroom thing, and that I hated because the guy had to bring me back to the table and things like that, and that was unacceptable in my days. But seeing the way how they danced this tango Argentino as a couple, it drew me in. The bandoneon, but also the dance.

LIZ: And were you, when you discovered tango, you were already in a relationship with Angelika, right?

BRIGITTA: Yeah, Angelika is my very, very good friend. And we were in a relationship, but there was already my husband around as well, so, it's like, [LAUGHS] I have long-term relationships. I'm still good friends with Angelika-

LIZ: Okay.

BRIGITTA: -and over 40 years married to one and the same beautiful man. He's a conceptual artist and he's totally drawn into that, the way how I'm drawn to my movements and to tango. So we are many times doing our own things and then we come together and we listen to each other and are the best friends. And I'm very happy that he doesn't dance. I like to have lots of dance partners and one life partner. I don't think that it's so easy to live in a relationship, especially when you are professional, you know. And these days I was performing as well and everything. The Argentines didn't like that so much because they said, "well, when you come with me on a tour or whatever, and we are partnering, it has to be a romantic relationship." And for me, it was not the case.

LIZ: But in those days, it was kind of part of the professional culture - if you liked someone enough to perform with them and tour with them and everything, you wanted to have a romantic relationship with them. Did you find that that was kind of a cultural code?

BRIGITTA: I think it was an assumption, yes. I would say that was an assumption. And listen, hey, I mean, what's the big deal, you know? But I didn't like it. I just didn't want.

LIZ: Hm. Did you feel like that clipped your wings in any way or held you back from taking opportunities?

BRIGITTA: I think it shaped my wings. It sharpened my wings into, "hey!", you know. [LAUGHS] I was not against the culture there. I was just like, I can say flabbergasted by all the things that happened, you know. And I was like a lot with the cast of Tango Argentino, for example, and with all these, in these days, for me, very old guys - by now they are long gone. And the codes or what there was happening between men and women was very, very strong
in the idea of I'm the guy and I can do it all.

LIZ SCRIPT:
If you Google Brigitta, you are likely to find an iconic black and white photo of her in an intensely intimate embrace. She wears a black dress and gazes down demurely as she tangos with an androgynous partner in pinstripe pants, a black vest, and white button-down shirt. That partner is Angelika Fischer.

BRIGITTA:
So I had the pleasure or the easy thing that I started tango in Berlin. And I started as someone who was living with a woman and dancing with women was not a problem at all in Berlin. It was not a thing at all. You would not think twice, you would not look twice. It was also the punk time. We were little punks. So I started. Angelika was on a trip in India for a year and I started with this going to Paris. And then when she came back, I said, "look, do this. It's like incredible. This is called tango and it looks like this." And I think I led her into a gancho first thing.

[LIZ ASIDE] A gancho is when a dancer hooks their leg around their partner's leg.

In the beginning of the '80s or mid-'80s when we went to Buenos Aires, we were really kind of the only tourists in Buenos Aires. I remember there was one Japanese couple also taking lessons with Eduardo Arquimbau. No- no one else. No one else. And tango was very little as well. But when we went to the milongas, it was a no-go. But then they said, "well, these women are teachers as well, and they come from Europe, so we'll let them perform." We were invited to perform at the milongas as kind of that- look at these strange papagays or whatever, I don't know. You know, the hairy women from Europe-

LIZ: Like, exotic. You were like an exotic attraction. [BOTH LAUGHING]

BRIGITTA: Exactly, exactly. And the teachers invited us to classes and there in classes, it was allowed to lead as well, but only in classes. We went a lot to Buenos Aires in these years and we would stay for two or three months. And sometimes we had the good idea to get together with another gay couple. And so we were sitting together, like two women, two guys, and we danced together in the man-women fashion - leading, following. And that helped us, you know, to be at the milongas. It was actually Eric Jorisson and his partner by then that we would do that, and that was so much fun. Do you know Eric?

LIZ: I've heard of him, but I don't know him.

BRIGITTA: He's a wonderful, wonderful colleague and another great human of tango.

The fame came unexpected with this kind of, "oh, let's go for the TV show." That was again in the early '80s. There were two big TV channels and two big shows and we were on both shows, so we did choreographies there. One was "Quejas de Bandoneon" and I think "La Yumba." And those choreographies we had gotten from working with, uh, Gloria and Eduardo Arquimbau. So that was not improvised.

LIZ: How did you gender those? Like, did somebody wear a suit or...

BRIGITTA: So my Angelika to the day is like, "I want to lead." And it's, by nowadays, it's a fight because I also like to lead. So for example, in "La Yumba," we, uh, both wore suits and hats. And there is a moment in the choreography where I put the hat off and throw it away and this long, even longer blonde hair comes out and we keep on dancing like that. Then I think "Quejas de Bandoneon" we are both in very traditional tango clothes, she in black and I'm in white, which did not really fit me very well, but anyway... So later on, we were in Germany at the TV- in a TV show, in a magazine. And I was at a friend's house and the neighbor came over and said, like, "I see that white clothes hanging out there, the dress, and I saw it yesterday in the TV. Is this woman with you?"

LIZ: Wow. Good eye. [LAUGHS]

BRIGITTA: Yeah, yeah. And the next jump I would do, which is totally different, is then living in New York, getting this big grant that we got, NEFA, the Foundations of the Arts in Boston. And all of a sudden everybody wanted us. Now this is us again, Tango Mujeres, you know, all the women there. Angelika was there and Rebecca Shulman, New York City, Valeria Solomonoff, my good friend from Buenos Aires. Sharna was a little later with us-

[LIZ ASIDE] Referring to Sharna Fabiano.

-Fabienne Bongard from Switzerland. And we got a big tour, you know, starting in Key West, touring all over. We brought it also to Europe. The Americans like to say the very first, the very best. However, it was the first all-women tango cast. And then there was a very good critique in the New York Times. So that's kind of a dancer's dream, these kind of things happening.

And then teaching a lot and each weekend flying out somewhere, getting another partnership with an Argentine. We had a great time together, me and Tomás Howlin, teaching a lot all over.

Yeah, and I was young. I mean, this all belongs, I think, to a certain time in your life. And now when you look at the whole thing, it's a journey and it's a time as well. We are talking about 40 years that I'm doing this tango right now. So, there is this kind of age that helps you as well to soften the view and to soften the ego and not only looking for what and how but into the why.

And I'm talking about being a guide and teacher in tango. What is it? Is it a barrida? Is it a gancho? When I'm asked for class titles, like, what? And then how and that's the technique, you know, the dissociation and the front open bag and all these helpful things and everyone has their beautiful technique. And I am mostly interested also in the why. And I think from the why, whatever it is - you have a different why than I have - but it should trickle down into your thoughts and your actions and your teaching.

[MUSIC]

LIZ SCRIPT:
Brigitta's tango path led her to explore an incredible variety of body systems and movement techniques, including yoga; Body-Mind Centering; Release, Alexander, Feldenkrais, and Klein techniques; contact improvisation; Authentic Movement; Axis Syllabus; the Franklin method; and Fighting Monkey.

[LIZ ASIDE] Links to information I could find about these systems and techniques in the show notes.

Brigitta synthesizes these diverse approaches into her tango teaching. And her favorite way to present that synthesis is when she guides a morning practice during week-long tango retreats.

BRIGITTA:
Coming into this nowadays, what I do a lot is, um, retreats and in a retreat, I have the possibility to have participants for a week or a little longer so that I usually really look for a place where it's a really good, beautiful space where we can have morning sessions starting on the floor. And those morning sessions are something that I created out of all these things. It's not one specific BMC or one specific Fighting Monkey-

[LIZ ASIDE] BMC standing for Body-Mind Centering

-but I all see tango in it whenever I look at those things. So in this work, it's not so much muscular. It's a little bit more, um, less is more, like, going into the being rather than the doing. And here we come into this idea that the body has such a great wisdom. We just have to discover it. It is, of course, clear that doing yoga or Pilates or whatever is strengthening your body and it's a good thing to do. And you do that in the morning and then you go into your tango and you still might end up in your habits. So the integration time from the work on the floor and then an integration time right after it is very important.

So for example, when we work with an idea of walking in an elegant way in tango, that could be a class title for an intermediate class or whatever level class you can do that. And we start in the morning, there is this constructive rest position. Then you could go and use something very beautiful, which is the breath. And the breath brings us always into the now. And we are slowing down with it. Even I slow down right now here a little bit when we go into the idea of breath.

Then exploring the idea of that the body is a three-dimensional construct. You can roll on the floor, feeling your back body, your front body and your side bodies. And I'm never getting tired to explain that movements connected with the breath are effortless, effective and elegant. And of course, you can walk like each exhale very, very slowly one weight change, one step in whatever direction, each inhale one step in whatever direction. so you have a concrete connection to the work on the floor when you are upright.

This you could keep on going, of course, with explorations. You can lead a whole sequence of steps in one exhale and then stop when you inhale. Or the other way around, you are going to inhale and walk and pause and exhale. But then you can also bring it into tango, doing very, very slow weight changes or having these people walking side by side and one is going to do the very slow, even slower than a beat, and the other one walks the beat, but you still walk together. And then that could be exchanged whenever the other one goes into the slow. So that would be an example of a morning session into a tango lesson and the way how I like to lead it or to guide it.

LIZ: Sounds amazing. I wish I were there right now. I feel like I was sort of there.

BRIGITTA: You were. Yes. I saw you breathing. I felt you breathing. [LIZ LAUGHS]

You know, we all have this body and we are using it in this tango to express - express the music, express your ideas, your feelings, what happens between these two people. And it has so much, um, possibilities there. Like this one example like using the breath, it's also a big unifier. It's not the leader's breath and the follower's breath. [LAUGHS] Or using fascia. Fascia is this kind of big connector that connects all our body and everything together - the up and the down and the right and the left. Fascia is not the leading fascia and the following fascia. It's like something that we can do together and it works like a memory foam, you know. So also in these embraces then you can work with the embrace, like just put it to the other side and see what that does. Kind of a tango detox. [BOTH LAUGHING]

[LIZ ASIDE] The typical tango embrace is asymmetrical with the leader's right and follower's left arms wrapped around each other while their other arms join at the hand. It's not about lead and follow again.

It's like the idea as well to give up the ownership of the movement and let it travel. When you do this body work in the morning, it's a little easier to go into this dancing mind and a thinking body, because you are making space for what the body is capable of, creating a consciousness about it and trusting in it. And the body has also musicality. Like, sometimes I say these words, like movement is the song of the body and the rhythm is the operation system of the human being. And our body moves even if we are quiet, you know. There is fluid going, there is the blood. And this is again something where I really look always in this kind of, what do we have in common, and not into the kind of dividing, well, you are the man, I'm the woman. I'm blonde, you're short hair. I'm big, she's small.

The divisions are there and diversity is something that brings a really nice dimension, but if you go through it, and I think this time of the world, this- where we are right now needs more togetherness and more united things, so I'm looking for those and go from there and go with that into the co-creation of moving together.

Again, these are ideas that really use the "why." I can choose what I want to have in my life more and what less, and so it's a conscious decision that I look into what do we have together and when I find something in this person that is- let's see... And in tango you'll find that- and I'm going to get very concrete right now. So I am not a-

[LIZ VOICEOVER] supporter of a certain political figure who will remain unnamed

-so if I find a-

[LIZ VOICEOVER] person who supports that political figure

-and I still dance with this person - and I do, and I do - and I can still feel "oh, there is some common things there," we understand each other again. And I think that's better than if I would say immediately "okay no, no-go." Because we have to, we have to make it, we have to make it. And I think that's the way as well to [SIGH] make it a little better in that world.

[LIZ ASIDE] Quick note: the tango that accompanies this episode describes a woman, Margo, whose experiences with tango ultimately cause her great suffering. Both Margo and Brigitta followed tango to Paris, but otherwise their tango journeys are quite distinct. The Tango Poetry Project was kind enough to translate these lyrics, so you can read about Margo's tango journey in English through a link in the show notes.

[MUSIC - LYRICS IN SPANISH]
Margo ha vuelto a la ciudad
con el tango más amargo,
su cansancio fue tan largo
que el cansancio pudo más.

Varias noches el ayer
se hizo grillo hasta la aurora,
pero nunca como ahora
tanto y tanto hasta volver.

¿Qué pretende? ¿A dónde va
con el tango más amargo?
¡Si ha llorado tanto Margo
que dan ganas de llorar!

LIZ SCRIPT:
Brigitta believes in tango's power to unite, and these days, as a teacher and dancer, she favors one particular practice for transforming the dynamics between two people dancing.

BRIGITTA:
I call it roundtrip. That means I start as a follower, I go into the leader, I go into the follower, I go and lead lead lead, I follow follow... it doesn't matter if I'm a follower, you know, I'm, uh- for example what I really dislike is this idea, like, we dance and I'm the leader and I do a parada - your time, please do your embellishments - and then I lead again.

[LIZ ASIDE] A parada is a pause where it's typically understood that the follower gets to decide how or when to continue their movement.

It's not what it is. It's all the time together. And it can be very beautiful if one is only following and one is only leading. However it's easier, or it brings me more joy, if we do the roundtrip and it travels between us. Again, giving up the ownership of a movement, having more the idea of "oh, this momentum takes us there. No, it takes us there! Oh, it's going to stop right here - I hadn't planned that but, hey." Things like that, yeah.

LIZ: It sounds like you're saying you are, um, partial to this way of queering tango where you're trying to kinda get outside of this this binary of lead and follow.

BRIGITTA: Right, right, right, there we are again in, what do we have in common? What is the togetherness, the unity, rather than you, me... It's like this kind of - who pays the rent? "Who pays the rent?" "I pay the rent!" No, you pay the rent!" [BOTH LAUGHING] It's cultural context we put in for so many years and it's so deep ingrained in the tango bones, into the tango mind, that- it doesn't have to be. And here we are, we can we can dig it out and put something else into it.

Also what I really like, and this is again in the now, I really do like the idea of leading and following without exchanging the embrace, so it's more the inner dancer and it doesn't matter if my arms are to the right and to the left. We understand as well it is like that because there was the sword on that side, so therefore all the ballroom and everything goes to this side. I always ask my student if they know. They say, like, "ah, because of the heart or because of the ronda." No, it's because of the sword. Then I ask them, anyone has their sword with them? And if not I say "let's try it the other way around!" [BOTH LAUGHING] Yeah, it's really good to have it with a little laughter. Rituals are good, but now we don't need that anymore and the other way around just means that I'm not holding here but I'm holding here. I can still lead, you know. What you need to use is your core line more than anything else.

Another thing I really like to work on the floor in the morning lessons about starfish. Starfish has the center around the belly button and all the energy coming in and out from all the spine upward and downward, tail and head, arms and legs. And from here you go into expressing the lead or the follow - whatever it is, doesn't matter. And we do know that a follower is listening and that a leader can listen as well. And we do know that a leader is proposing but the follower can do that as well. And then when we have these kind of habits a little bit away, it's way easier to do that.

LIZ SCRIPT:
I believe it was Birthe Havmoeller, founder of the Queer Tango Project, who introduced me - years ago, through a post to the "Queer Tango Conversation" Facebook group - to the idea of dancing beyond roles, along the lines of what Brigitta describes with her roundtrip concept. Since then, I've talked and thought about this idea quite a bit and practiced it a little bit.

[LIZ ASIDE] Shoutout to Manu Sanz and her concept of emirecs, which we'll have to hear more about soon.

I confessed to Brigitta that while I love the idea of dancing this way and have found the experience exhilarating, I've also found it confusing and at times sloppy.

BRIGITTA:
It's definitely a challenge, but then again how do we grow? Then I would make a big difference between confusing and sloppy. Confusing is one of my favorite things and it's one of the words I hear the most when people come to my classes. "I'm confused." The idea of the way how I teach it is like the learners are no longer seen as passive consumers of someone else info but as active creators, and I'm using games in order to do so. So they create their own knowledge and skills, but this is not what they are used to. That's totally against their habit. So they're totally confused and I always try to tell them if you're confused, that's the space where the learning happens, because you are in the not knowing. If you know, you can go "I know it" - that's it. You go. But it's tough, I'm not saying that it's easy. That's the one thing...

There was one more else you were saying so nicely about- ah, sloppy was the other one. So there is a risk, so that the idea, like, everything is possible goes into this kind of wu-wu-wu-wu-wu. And that's not what I mean - not at all. I mean the other side - I mean, like, going even more into the presence into-

LIZ: the thinking body?

BRIGITTA: -yeah, and the dancing mind. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I love it, it's- and it's one of the things that drives me these days. Rather than doing another- looking for another step, or another technique - and those techniques, we need them - it's not so much about technique what I'm talking. But it doesn't have to be sloppy. If there are sloppy times in, like, getting out from all the rules, fine, but um, this I don't like. I know what you mean by it, yeah.

Now imagine I have this incredible dancer that I - this changes from time to time - there is someone I love to dance with. Let's see - it's a guy and he's, maybe, already a professional or whatever and I love to dance with him. Whatever, the dynamics and the musicality and the connection, there we are, and how we listen to each other and dadada. And he leads and I follow and that works fine and I'm totally in heaven when I do it. So why change a working machine, you know? Because it works so well? I change because I can. I change because I have already a glimpse that all that can multiplicate in a totally new dimension.

So what is it, what I really like in tango? I personally like the idea that it's transformative. It transforms me, it transforms us. Again, from the me there is an us. With the wisdom of the music, there is transformation. Comes also from presence, so it's not important what's the next step. It's not important what was, what will be. It's the being there for each other in the now.

And then with this kind of who-is-leading-who-is-following, it heightens the listening, of course. It heightens the presence. And it's spectacular creative. It has to be practiced and it has to be, absolutely, a consensus that we love to do that. [LAUGHS] I introduce it a lot and lots of people are- even people who are leading and following say "no, if I lead, I lead; if I follow, I follow. I don't like it, I don't like the idea, I don't want to mess up." It's also one of the things that if you do it, again, the ego might play in because you might not be so good with it. You might not dance so good, like I had explained right now, like I do that with this guy who leads and I'm a good follower.

It will need again opening doors, practicing, understanding your habits, uh, so that it's not easy, but it is worthwhile. It's, to me, a new dimension and I'm working on it - to spread it. 

[MUSIC - LYRICS IN SPANISH]
Ayer pensó que hoy...
y hoy no es posible...
La vida puede más que la esperanza...

París
era oscura y cantaba su tango feliz,
sin pensar, pobrecita
que el viejo París
se alimenta con el breve
fin brutal de una magnolia
entre la nieve...

Después
otra vez Buenos Aires
y Margo otra vez
sin canción y sin fe...

LIZ: When you experienced the Wall falling, did you ever think we'd be here? [LAUGHS] I mean, how long's it been now, 30-

BRIGITTA: yeah

LIZ: -36 years?

BRIGITTA: I'm pretty sure I told that story in this other interview. It's a-

LIZ: Yes, that was amazing! Yeah, feel free.

[LIZ ASIDE] Referring to Brigitta's interview for Joe's Tango Podcast, which I linked through the Show Notes and recommend listening to.

BRIGITTA: No, no, it's really cool, because I really- together with this partner, I started tango- like I said, the one I saw, we had a tango show at the UFA which is a very nice alternative - still existing these days - alternative, beautiful event. And we had a tango show and nobody came and it was the reason because the Wall opened. And I was like- I didn't believe it. I was looking out, see that nobody's there, I think, like, well, we were sold out, how can it happen, you know? And [they] say well, the Wall was- "ha ha" - I didn't believe it, you know. Then going home and the subway, you hear, like, people- everybody's like- and then I didn't even believe it there. I was, like, totally in my tunnel, like, I'm not understanding what's happening. And I saw it in the TV and then I went out and it was amazing, amazing, amazing. Yeah. It's still an amazing thing, that- no shooting, no nothing, just this big wall... Again, but when we did that, we can do a lot of things.

LIZ: I was gonna say, does it give you hope, like, having seen that happen?

BRIGITTA: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

I think the world needs the- looking at each other with empathy and working together, which we do in tango, whatever politics you are. In the '80s there was this thing about, um, nuclear weapons and there was big demonstrations and everything. It says "Atomkraft? Nein danke" - "nuclear weapons no thank you" was, like, a- kind of a banner. And me and Angelika, we would dance and we would have skirts with slits and would write "Atomkraft? Nein danke" on our thighs. [LAUGHS] So we would dance. We had some, um, vengeance, you know, where we were in politic parties invited, and we would demonstrate our beliefs in that way, you know, dancing tango and showing off, that kind of thing. So that was when I was young.

However, as I said, you know here in the tango world - and I work a lot still in the United States - more than ever they talk about politics as well and they need because it's such a horrible situation right now. And there are people who-

[LIZ VOICEOVER] have different political views

-and we still dance with each other and we talk to each other. I think it's important. And we take it step by step. I mean I'm not quiet in what what I believe and what I want, but it's also the doing that brings us forward.

LIZ SCRIPT:
Here's to thinking bodies and dancing minds, working together. Thank you Brigitta. And thanks to the Internet Archive, where Brigitta found the recording of "Margo" by Armando Pontier with lyrics by Homero Expósito, performed by Francisco Canaro y su Orquesta Típica with singer Guillermo Corral.

[MUSIC - LYRICS IN SPANISH]
¿Qué pretende? ¿A dónde va
con el tango más amargo?
¡Si ha llorado tanto Margo
que dan ganas de llorar!