TRANSCRIPT ~ EPISODE 30

EPISODE 30: Creating spaces to grow, with Astrid Weiske

Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: "Gipsy Vals" by El Cachivache Quinteto Tango | Image Credit: Ksusha Ivanova, © QTFestival Berlin

ASTRID:
If I see now, everybody can dance with everybody, or this big, big movement of women leading, which happened, I would say, around the last five to ten years, becoming more dominant - which is fantastic - that's because we went into the public scene. And I always say that's something the LGBTIQ tango community gave to the entire tango community as a gift of liberation, and that's something that is... that rooted in the queer tango movement. Without us breaking up these rigid roles and understanding of the traditional tango roles and questioning that, that would not have happened. So this is something important for me to say, because people think, oh yeah, it's natural that now women can lead. No, it was- a lot of LGBTIQ people went through some pain for that liberation.

[MUSIC]

LIZ ID INTRO:
I'm Liz Sabatiuk and this is Humans of Tango, where we explore what tango has to teach through the experiences of those who dance it.

LIZ SCRIPT:
That was Astrid Weiske, queer tango dancer, teacher, and founder of one of the most successful and significant queer and open-role tango events to date, the International Queer Tango Festival in Berlin, which marked its final year in 2025.

ASTRID:
I grew up in a small town in Western Germany, close to Cologne. It's about 60,000 inhabitants. My childhood in the '70s and my adolescence was in the '80s. I was kind of this... unusual girl, and I felt it right away when it came to being in school. I was never like the other girls. I was the only one who was like that. I felt very early age on, I felt, like, a little bit displaced.

I make some friends, girls and boys, but I mainly was playing with boys, and I was in the football gang, and they accepted me at some point because I was playing so well football, or soccer. So I was respected by the guys and the kids around. But it changed when we- I got in puberty because all that mating thing started with boys. So it became a different kind of game. And then I felt like I fall in love with women, and that was a big thing for me because I'd feel even more off. I immediately, without knowing that a term like lesbian or gay or homosexual was existing, I felt like that is not socially accepted. There had been one or two in the area around - people talking bad about them. So I was, more than three years, I was kind of quiet with that, and I never came out to anybody.

Then I had my first girlfriend in the age of 16, 17. It had been a hidden relationship for two years or so. And, for me, I couldn't stand that anymore. I needed to open up to somebody. And first, of course, I opened up with a schoolmate, and she was quite okay with it, and I felt, whew, relieved. And a little bit later, with 18 or something like that, I opened up to my parents, and that was a little bit more delicate.

My mom didn't understand it. My father was very sad about it. Well, they didn't blame me, but they gave me their fear about what the other people would say. They had been afraid that I got rejection of people and they blame me. And that fear was severe. I mean, that was the reality where I grew up. Yeah, that was not an easy time for me.

Well, it changed when I started to go into- I found queer communities where to meet other queer people in Cologne and Düsseldorf. And, uh, that was the beginning of getting a safe space. So, and then I moved to Berlin, yeehaw! I moved to West Berlin, and there was a huge, huge queer community - I dived in.

Berlin in the '80s was an open place, very unusual because it was isolated in the communist ocean. I did my education as a photographer here in Berlin in the university and studied this. I was surrounded by fabulous artists and, uh, queer people. Then the Wall came down and the reunification in the '90s - wild times here. [LAUGHS] After the Wall came down, there was the big clubs starting in East Berlin, and there was these kind of illegal clubs. There was a lot of house music and techno, and- I was not so much into techno, but good, fun, dance music. And I liked that a lot, yeah.

My father gave me his camera before I moved to Berlin. And when I came here, I had no idea what to do. I did some jobs here, like a waiter or whatever. The son of my colleague, he studied photography, and I was kind of, wow - there was a click. It was squeezing him out about the school and how to apply there, and I did it, and I had to do tests and homework, and finally I got the spot for studying there for three years. That was fantastic.

For the documentary photography class, they asked us for, um, portraying a person who has a specific passion. My former girlfriend at that time, she had a very good friend who was crazy in love with tango, and that took my interest. So he agreed that I can stick on his butt for three or four weeks and go with him wherever he goes. So I went with him to a milonga, um - '92 or something like that - in the center of Berlin in a beautiful theater. I had not even entered the door of the milonga, I heard the music, and that shook me. And I opened the door, and I saw these people in, in very close embrace with this old, scratchy tango music. And I was kind of just standing there, and I was just soaking it up. And I got myself a seat. I didn't touch my camera at all that evening. I just witnessed. And I, of course, I asked the friend how this functioned, and he told me a lot about it, the codec and the rules and the line of dance thing. And, yeah, that was my very first encounter with tango.

LIZ: And did you start right away, or did it take you a while to learn?

ASTRID: No, but I was curious. But at that time, I was so crazy busy with my study, um, and I had no time at all for kind of a hobby. Yeah, but three years later, after I finished, um, my education, there turned out an opportunity for me to get my first tango lesson.

I was very connected in the queer community in Berlin, and I couldn't see myself going into a straight school. But some of my friends, female friends, they told me, there's a tango women's class offer. Because there was a women's center, and there was a teacher here in Berlin. She offered tango lessons for women only. And a friend told me about this, and she said, "you're always telling me you want to learn that. Do you want to join? Do you want to try to gain a group? And I said, yes.

Because I felt safe that it's a group of lesbian women, most of them had been lesbian women. So I don't have to explain myself. I hadn't seen anybody in the tango world at that time that had been an expression like I was. They had been all feminine women. That was this typical stereotype, heteronormative image and behavior. And I could not see myself as a follower. Because the examples or the role models I saw at that time, I couldn't relate to this.

So in the beginning, when I started this tango class, the teacher just left the choice to us if we wanted to lead or follow. So I started leading. For the very first 10 years, I was resisting starting to follow. And it took a while getting into this leading. And it's uh- I mean, it's a challenge of both roles in the beginning. But leading was kind of what I was very eager to learn and growing and getting more confident in my leading.

So with this group, I felt safe or we felt safe with each other. And we had maybe once or two times a year a women milonga. But that was not enough. In order to learn the dance, you have to dance and go dancing. And after a while, we felt confident enough to go out to a normal milonga. We had been maybe five, six couples. We dived into the ocean, in the big ocean of straight tango. And we had been, in the beginning, very hesitant because we had no idea how the people would receive us.

Women leading was not very common. And it took a lot, a lot more years. But there had been also some teachers here, like you mentioned Brigitta Winkler and her partner Angelika Fischer.

[LIZ ASIDE] You can hear from Brigitta in episode 28 of this podcast.

They both had been offering practicas and classes and performing together. And they brought, they had this company, they're called Tango Mujer. And they had a tour here in Germany.

[LIZ ASIDE] In 1996.

And I went and I was blown away because it was so unusual. It was an all-female tango performance that was not like the red rose in the mouth. And a man is rejecting women. And all that stories that had been very present at that time. When it comes to show, it was very poetic. Dance theater and seeing five or six women in different roles expressing and telling stories. I could relate to that and, and that influenced me a lot. And then later I met Brigitta the first time and Angelica and also, later, the entire company. And I did photography with them. And seeing a different, different image of what tango can be, it was beautiful. Inspired me a lot.

[MUSIC]

ASTRID:
Marga Nagel and Ute Walter and some friends of them, they started the first International Queer Tango Festival in Hamburg. Actually, the term "queer tango" was kind of created at that time. Before that, I was dancing queer tango, but this term was not existing. 2001 the first Hamburg queer tango festival, that was a big inspiration for me as a social dancer. It was very unconventional, very interesting teachers. I went there like many others, basically, mainly are from Germany and a few from abroad. Once a year we come there and meeting, and this environment was so different than that what we went out for dancing on a daily basis in the straight community.

I always was the kind of only female leader most of the time in the '90s and 2000s. That's okay. I'm, I'm, I'm used to it. Coming back to my childhood, I was the only one who had short hair. I was the only one who played football and soccer. I was the only one who didn't want to wear a skirt. The only one- woman dancing-

LIZ: You were used to being unusual.

ASTRID: -yeah. The only one, the only, "only gay in town" phrase I used for that.

So every time I went to a milonga I'm not familiar with or going in a different country dancing, I was scared in the beginning when I entered the floor because I don't know if it is socially accepted that I can lead a woman or if people come up to me and ask me to leave. That's painful. And that is what many of us experienced in the '90s and the '80s.

It's not always, like, very direct. What I experienced as well is crossing your way on the dance floor or bumping into you on purpose, yeah? Or getting rejected. I did cabeceos and I had a hard time to get a dance. In Buenos Aires experienced - it was 2010 - a woman did not want to dance with me. A friend of mine told me, she is not accepting your dance because she's afraid that she will sit the entire night, because she danced with a woman.

And then I met in Hamburg, Augusto.

[LIZ ASIDE] That's Augusto Balizano, who you can hear from in the very first episode of this podcast.

I was very inspired by his work and Mariana.

[LIZ ASIDE] That's Mariana Docampo, another legendary pioneer of queer tango in Buenos Aires, who you can learn more about in the show notes.

Yeah, and I started giving classes here in Berlin, and it's really from the scratch because there was nothing existing anymore for women only or queer people.

When I was a little girl, I thought I was a boy. Yeah, when I was a little girl, I thought always I am wrong. I'm a boy. I'm not a girl. Later, in my 20s, I had thought about- because the trans movement got bigger and the topic came up more, first in the States and then also here in Europe. And many masculine female- butch women, they started to think that they are men and they got into the transition. I was questioning myself the same, but I couldn't go for that decision. It was a process to learn that, um, a woman with a way more masculine appearance is totally fine, and that is me. That I feel home with. And I always- you always find somebody who loves that.

In the '90s, 2000 years, started the concept of queer. I see it like an umbrella term where everybody is kind of included. I am a person who is going for just mentioning or speaking out the term lesbian woman, because for some women, this is an identity, and it needs to be seen and be visible. Because lesbian women have been invisible for centuries. But I see the queer community and the gender variety, and it's so diverse. It's not just, like, men, women, lesbian, gays, trans - there's intersectional people, yeah? This is also very important. I had a student who had an intersectional background, who experienced physical and mental damage in their life from very baby. Or especially women - lots of women have abuse experiences, whether in childhood or in partnerships or whatever, that is so extremely common. And when you're coming to a physical activity, like dancing tango - so intimate - there occurs often some difficulties.

And how much people can experience intimacy, also, it's a very personal thing. It has to do with where you are personally at in your life, and also the other partner, right? But definitely, I see that tango, in such a more secure space, can help to experience intimacy and make new experience in your life, in relationships. Because that's always a mirror thing, and if you are eager to learn dancing, and connecting that to your personal self-discovery, and re-questioning things, then for sure, the tango is something that is a great activity for personal growth. With me it was like that. Through good experience, through bad experience in the tango, I grew. And this open environment in the queer space, or women's spaces, creates the chance.

[MUSIC]

ASTRID:
It took a long time to grow this community. People come, people go, and if you're doing that in a minority group, you had 10 students and half a year later you only have five. I established the concept of learning both roles right from the beginning. I think that if you start with dancers right away, the concept that it can be fluid feels more natural to you. And I saw over the years that people who started to explore both sides, uh, right from the beginning, they have a way smoother way to learn dancing in general.

LIZ: Were you always calling it queer tango?

ASTRID: Yes. I definitely want to address, first of all, the audience of the LGBTIQ umbrella. Because most of the queer dancers would never come to the idea to go into the straight school. It doesn't matter if they're friendly and open or whatever. But if they can choose a real queer offer organized by people out of the community, it's something different, right? Because queer people are still facing kind of, mmm, tricky moments in straight schools. It's just an example - when it comes to rotating, and you are a male follower, when it comes to rotating couples doing an exercise and then all of a sudden you're standing in front of another man, and the other man is not used to it. And they get fear! Yeah, so that's still people telling me that.

The queer tango, also, wherever I go, in other cities and countries, it's a quite open space for everybody, no matter where you are, who you are. There's also a big misconception into the entire tango community, "Ah, this is the queer tango. It's just for the queers. It's not for me." I heard that many times. I was really sad about it, because I know a lot of women who started to lead, and I [tell them], "oh, come to the festival." "Ah, I don't know. It's a queer festival. I-" Uh, hello? Of course, a festival or a queer event wants to provide a space where people will feel safe with their sexual orientation or gender identity. But also straight people are welcome, as long as they have an understanding of how to behave polite and without any kind of harming or anything like that. But this is a basic thing.

[MUSIC]

LIZ SCRIPT:
This episode shines a light on the development of the international queer tango community and how that community has changed mainstream tango. It's also important to acknowledge, as Astrid did when we spoke, that while LGBTQ+ rights have advanced in many countries, there's still a long way to go. And rising political extremism threatens the progress that's been made. Please check the show notes to learn more about the unique challenges new generations of LGBTQ+ tango humans are facing.

ASTRID:
I founded the Berlin Festival because I was inspired by Hamburg, and I thought Berlin is one of the main, big European queer capitals anyway. And we had a little group here and there was kind of a base for that, and also a more grown queer community internationally. So I did start 2011 the first, with the focus on giving these artists and queer teachers a platform to work, and showing their expertise. And it's important having role models for queer people, and not only for queer people, for everybody. And having these people together and bringing them from all over the world, from New Zealand to the West Coast, or Hawaii, people have been there, yeah.

So it was fantastic. I never had the idea that I turned out as such a mecca of open role and queer dancing. And now, after 13 years, especially after the pandemic, it became way more difficult to host this festival because of changing the environment, like the cost exploded for rent. And at the same time, less participants. So I was struggling the last two years with this situation. And also at the same time, within Europe, there have been more open role events because it was such a boom of it. And of course, people start to create their own events. And it's sad having less people because it creates a different atmosphere. Of course, financially, it's sad because I don't want to pay into it with my own money.

LIZ: Yeah.

ASTRID: And barely after the festival, it was break-even. So people would-

LIZ: I'm sorry.

ASTRID: Yeah. It is what it is. It took me a long time to make this decision. And I was really sad. And, um, but at the end of the day, I said, okay, namaste.

I'm, I'm feeling okay and I'm content with this decision, yeah. And I feel also, things in my life- personal life changed, like my mother needs more care, yeah, and I'm getting older so I have not so much power. I still have power, but I feel my limitations now, different limitations, yeah. So it's very stressful and it's a full-time job to be organizing such [an] event. And so I need a break. And I'm now having my sabbatical.

And I'm still teaching. It's a question of saving my resources, my physical and mental resources. So organizing myself, just me, is not such a big thing.

LIZ: And do you feel like in a way, like you've, you've accomplished your goal because there are so many other events? Like, what do you see on the European queer tango landscape right now? Is it very different from 10 years ago? And what do you, what do you think?

ASTRID: I think people like Augusto, Mariana or Marga and Ute in Hamburg, or me, we just set the root into the soil. And now it's starting to grow and blooming.

So all over the world, more and more communities, open role and queer communities, which is fantastic that this movement is growing and expanding. And also here in Europe, compared to the US, it's not so big and people don't have to have so big distances when it comes to travel. So easy access from Berlin to Lisbon or Paris or London. Within two hours, you're everywhere, yeah? So the fluctuation of people during the year is immense.

And also there's a new generation of dancers and organizers growing out of it. They're younger, they have more power and more energy. It's like in every other business. Young, creative people coming up, and it doesn't mean that I'm not creative anymore, but I'm different- on a different point in life. So my needs are different and my interests are changing. I'm going to teach next year in some communities as a, as a traveling teacher. But organizing, I need really a break.

In general, I think I'd like to do something smaller and leave the festival there, where it was. Because in itself, the Berlin Festival had such a big impact on the growth of the community. Because so many people came and had been over-the-moon excited about what happened on the festival and had been an inspiration for so many people in, in the States, in Europe, and in other places. I cannot ask for more.

This is a movement that keeps on going. And so many women all over the world are now starting into leading and changing roles. And some men do as well, changing the role and interested in following. For me, where I come from, I could not imagine that this one day would be happening. And also, lesbian women can be easy, or gay men more easy, or trans people can be a little bit more easy in the entire traditional tango community than the time where I started to dance.

[MUSIC]

LIZ SCRIPT:
Thank you, Astrid, for bringing your unique self to tango and creating space for others to do the same. And thanks to El Cachivache Quinteto Tango for the track that accompanies this episode, "Gipsy Vals."