TRANSCRIPT ~ EPISODE 6

EPISODE 6: Disappearing so tango can talk, with Juan Cantone

Producer/Host: Liz Sabatiuk | Music: "A Luis Luchi" by Eduardo Rovira, performed by SONICO | Image Credit: Monteleone Tango

LIZ SCRIPT:
Even as a little kid, Juan Cantone knew he wanted to dance. He just needed a few years to work up the courage.

JUAN:
Now it's quite a joke, thank God, but in that moment, it was a little bit tough. So, for me, in order to match with the society, I say, okay, okay, what is for boys? For boys it's, um, basketball and these kind of things, football, soccer. But I said, no, but something that you can move the body. Okay, martial arts, and I started with martial arts. And many years after, I was a teenager and, with all the rebel part that we have when we are teenagers, I decide, okay, now I'm gonna take my life and start to dance. It was 17, something like that. And in that moment also- I never cut my hair for the same reason. Um, when I was a kid, I want to have long hair. No, no, no, that's not for a boy - oh, sh- [LAUGHTER] So that moment when I was teenager, I took my life in my hands and I say, okay, now I'm gonna have long hair and I'm gonna dance.

[MUSIC]

LIZ ID INTRO:
I'm Liz Sabatiuk and this is Humans of Tango, where we explore what tango has to teach through the experiences of those who dance it.

LIZ SCRIPT:
Juan was born in Buenos Aires, Argentina, in the midst of massive political turmoil. As a kid, he listened to the tango music of his birthplace, but dancing was forbidden by the brutal military dictatorship that held power when he was young. After that dictatorship fell and Juan grew into a rebellious teenager, he decided to dance tango. With that choice, he joined a cultural renaissance that would sweep his hometown and the world.

JUAN:
With the beginning of the democracy here, it was in half of 80s - yes, all the young people, we had all the input, all the energy to, [LAUGHS] to change the world again. And it was interesting because it was through our own culture. When our generation in '90s get interested in tango and we want to found the milongueros-

[LIZ ASIDE] Milongueros meaning people who danced tango before the period of political suppression.

JUAN: Milongueros say, "You are crazy, guys. What do you want? Tango is dead." And for us, "no, no, maestro, please teach us your secrets, your things." "But why? Why, why, is nobody gonna dance tango anymore?" "Yes, yes - tango gonna come back." And they say, "Okay, guys, you are very strange people."

When I started, we were, like, a generation of men. But a couple of years after, I think, Graciela Gonzalez was one of the first- I want to say dancer but milonguera also, who started with followers technique. And I was part of this class. In this class, she had, I don't know, 20 followers and- I mean, women, and two, um, men - "El Indio" Benavente and me. And both long hair. [LAUGHTER] And it was for he and for me, it was like part of, because we were, like, start before, no? And for us, it was part of the same thing. If Graciela Gonzalez has something to teach, I want to catch that.

In 10 years, we have very, very crazy followers. Many of them come from the ballet dance or modern dance. And it was a nice moment, like a blooming moment, no? Like, um, yes, spring, tango spring. It was a surprise for us how it was the impact of this thing in the rest of the world. Because many of our generation start to travel, and we realized that in Paris, in New York, in Japan, and, I mean, in many big cities around the world, they had tango, like in Buenos Aires. And for us, it was, what? And we started to travel, to see, to know, to learn, to learn about tango, even out of our country.

Many times, I don't know why, but people want to ask, how dance or how is the tango in Italy? How is the tango in America? And for me, it's like, people is people in all the world. So I can found people like me in Uruguay, in New York, and different countries. And now, we are also having , like, a new global culture. And yes, of course, if you connect with tango in '80s in Japan, and you continue working on that, of course this person has many things to teach me. We have the possibility to learn from people around the world. I know many, many, many good, great dancers around the world, non-Argentinian.

[MUSIC]

LIZ SCRIPT:
By the time I moved to DC after starting my tango journey in Uruguay, Juan was already visiting regularly to teach and perform with Sol Orozco, his former longtime partner. I remember Juan talking to me about maintaining a learner's mindset in one of our first conversations, probably going on 15 years ago. For Juan, realizing our potential as dancers has absolutely nothing to do with where we were born and everything to do with how we approach our tango journey. He calls it the "why" aspect of tango.

JUAN:
If you just go to tango and like another activity, like go to the gym, you're never going to arrive to this point, because in order to arrive to this deep... deepness, you should study and go and try and found and- I don't know, it's about passion. Usually, people here and in many part[s] of the world work with the other aspects of tango.

Many times I separate tango in a couple of aspects. The first aspect is the aspect about what to do. Now, and you said before, ganchos and turns and boleos. Yes, this is vocabulary. This is, in my opinion, is the first aspect. I go to the class and the teacher teach me an ocho and then the turn and the thing and yada, yada, yada.

And the first year or the first year and a half, you think, "oh, wow, I am going into the deeper, the deepness of tango, because I know more, more, more, more every time." But then after a year or two years, you arrive to like a plateau area, you know, that you think, "I'm doing exactly the same ocho that the dancer make. I'm doing exactly the same boleo that the teacher do. But it- I'm missing something. I don't know what." And many times this plateau area, it takes, I don't know, 10 years and you continue in the same way until you discover the other aspects.

In my opinion, the second aspect is the aspect about how to do it. And this is about technique. And when you discover the technique part, everything starts to match and say, "okay, no, now it's not the same ocho, my ocho and the ocho of the dancer that I love," but also has a moment that you arrive to another plateau area because you know vocabulary and you know how to do it.

And now is the time to go to the third aspect, which is the music. And the name of this aspect for me is when, in what moment, I'm going to do something. Because I know a boleo, I know how to do it - great boleo - but I have music, it's like a marcato or something very, very melodic, like, "laaaaaa" and you're making, "fwaaaah" - or you have like a "tun tun tun tun" and you are making, "voom," boleo! Even if you are doing it in a great way, you start to feel, "oh, something is wrong."

And now, yes, after this, you arrive to the aspect about why. And this is very subjective aspect. And it's about all the thing that I said before, no? Let's say you have an accent, a musical accent. Because you are listening, I don't know, Canaro, and suddenly you have an accent. Canaro from '30s. You have an accent, you know the boleo, you know how to do the boleo, and you do a great, big, new boleo in this Canaro music and it doesn't match. It doesn't match. Even if it's on music, and well done. Because Canaro is not asking for boleos. And that was for us, for my generation, something that we were, to milongueros, to ask. "Okay, we know to move, we know how to do the things, but you have something more."

LIZ: Did the milongueros have answers about why? Did they try to explain?

JUAN: Yes... In their language, which is not super clear, we should read in between lines, through the practice and through the experience, we can, uh, yes, like, re-create our answers. But there is not, for me, in my experience, a milonguero who say, "ah, no, no, the reason is this one and that one, and I say, oh, there is a what to do, there is a how to do it, there is a when to do it, there is a why to do it." No, nobody taught me something like that. It's...my creation, through all these questions, through all my research, I- we're founding answers and creating answers.

LIZ: To make sure that I am totally clear on the "why" piece, it's not about, it's not "why dance," right? It's like, why pass this second of the song in this way, right? It's the why that informs the experience of dancing.

JUAN: The why is many, many things. The why part, many, many things. And it's, in my opinion, the juicy part.

I had a teacher, a milonguero, who said, "yes, you dance." He said, you, they were talking about a young generation. "You dance always in the same way." And for me, it was, yes, yes. I listened to this before, but I want to understand what it means for you, that. And asking, I started to discover that they were right. Because for us, it was, "Okay, I'm going to make a step, and then another step. I am listening the music, and I have an accent on this. In that moment, I'm gonna make another element. And one of them gave me a key. It was, "you guys are dancing from one point to the other point. I mean, you are in A point, and you go to B point. And then you go to another A and another B, and you are transferring your body. And yes, this is a way to dance. But for us, dance is what's happening between A and B." And I said, oh my gosh. It was the key to discover the other part.

In between A and B, you have the conversation with your partner. You, you can say things in a nonverbal conversation. It's, of course, it's a nonverbal. But you can communicate things to your partner. Your partner can talk with you. We think that intelligence is, like, intellectual. But body has a kind of intelligence that can surprise us. And through the muscle tone, through our way to, to receive a music sound, a music stimulus, you have a vibration and your partner can catch it. And you can communicate through all these things... Your fear, your security - I mean, many, many things. And she can, or he can, or they can understand, answer, complete us, or- I mean, it's like a conversation.

That is why when I was young and I was looking milongueros dancing- in Argentina, it's very common, and it was more before the cabeceo - cabeceo is the way to invite to dance - and you have an old guy, fat guy, sitting in that corner and young guys, good looking guys, sitting in the other side of the place. I am just talking about the landscape that I had in my mind in that moment. It was my reality in that moment. And you can see all the young ladies, beautiful ladies. Instead of look at the young and the good-looking guys, they were looking the milonguero, the old and fat guy. And then all these ladies looking the milonguero and the milonguero in certain moment invite to dance one of these ladies. And dance easy, dance easy, just walking and nothing. No ganchos, no nothing. I said, "oh, yes, maybe she dance with him because he's an old guy and, I don't know, sweet person." And then after that, I went to my girlfriend and say, "Hey, tell me, how was the experience to dance with the milonguero?" "Oh, it was beautiful." "What? It was beautiful - why? If you were dancing, I mean, just a couple of steps, nothing, nothing." "Oh, no, no, no - it was crazy. He talk [to] me about many things. [LAUGHTER]

And for me, it was "Okay, there's something that I am missing." And I start to discover what happened in between, in between. I say the small print of the contract, the thing the first time that you are watching you cannot see. But you can feel something if you're a sensitive person. And for us, it was like our challenge. "Okay, let's understand and let's learn what happened." And many of us start to dance with these milongueros because we want to feel. And believe me, it's fantastic. The feeling is fantastic.

LIZ: And "us" being men or people who are leaders generally following the milonguero.

JUAN: Yes, yes, milonguero- the best class that you can have with a milonguero is dance with him. Dance with him, because in terms of talk, it's gonna be confus[ing]. But when you feel their body talking, it's completely clear. It's completely clear. And that is why I was creating all this thing about why, which is a very subjective aspect, but it's the juicy part. When you can arrive to this point that you start to dance in between steps, between A and B, in all this line, you discover another world.

Two weeks ago, I went to dance here in Buenos Aires. And I was looking [at] a guy dancing with another guy. And I say, "wow, he dance, man." And it was super strong for me to see how he managed the follower role. After that, I asked him if he want to dance with me. And he said, "yes, of course." And we danced. And I cannot stop to dance with him. I danced two tandas with Juampy-

LIZ: Juampy Ramirez?

JUAN: Yeah.

[LIZ ASIDE] I will spare you my fangirling, but let's just say Juampy Ramirez is not your average guy who follows. In 2018, Juampy made it to the final of the Mundial de Tango - that's like the Tango World Cup - in the following role. And you can find a few favorite videos in the show notes.

JUAN: And we were dancing in very, very, very close embrace. And in certain moment, I feel exactly the same that the milonguero said. "Where is tango?" And tango, it was not in the steps - but actually, there was very beautiful steps because he dance in an incredible level - but the juicy part is, it wasn't in the steps, it was in between. What happened with the muscle tone, with the way that he offered his heart, and the way that his heart connect with mine, and the dialogue who has these two bodies. And we, in certain moment, like person, we can disappear. I mean, Juan, it wasn't there. It was...other thing that is not Juan. I think it was the dance. And for me, that is the point. When you can disappear like a person, when you can have not more personality, when you have not more, um, name and physical appearance, it's all about feeling. And that is the thing that make me dance forever.

[MUSIC]

LIZ SCRIPT:
Juan's reverence for connecting and disappearing isn't limited to the social dance floor. He aims to do the same in performance.

JUAN:
My best performance is when I can disappear like a person. When dance take me and take my partner.

LIZ: So it's like you get into that zone that you were describing with Juampy.

JUAN: Yeah, when you get, like, in a trance, that the concept of "perform" disappear. It's an aside. And we can connect with the music and connect with the dance and disappear like a person and appear the dance.

Through the language that I know, I try to, to write a poem. And that has a risk. And the risk is that you cannot do it. Many times I cannot do it. But that is the risk. And if it's risk, I think it's good. Even if you cannot express the maximum that you want, uh, if your poem is not cool. [LAUGHTER] But you try and I think it's positive.

I think improvisation is a color of tango and it's a very basic color. And if you have nothing, not just one step in improvisation, I think you are missing a color. But, could be a possibility if you are in a show, in a different kind of show, when you have, like, a concept, a big stage and a company. And okay, in that moment it's completely different. I was talking about the kind of performance that I make, which is in a dance floor, in a festival. It's not in a big stage with a big company. But we have many examples of great dancers in big stages with full choreography writing a poem.

The important thing for me in perform is connect with your partner, with the music in a very, very deep way - so you should know the music that you are dancing - and transit this risk to offer something new, something that even you don't know that you can offer. When happen[s] that, I clap myself. [LAUGHTER] And it's not often. If you transit all this risk, you start to have a connection with the audience, even if it's in a big stage with a big company or if it's in a milonga or in a festival. That is the goal, in my opinion - to connect deeper as you can disappear like a person...and tango can talk.

[MUSIC]

JUAN:
Of course, it's something very...intimate moment. And the connection with your partner is- it happen[s] in many different levels. And it's easy to get confused. It's easy to feel that your structures moves when you connect with someone in so deeper way. And I think that is great. In this moment, I feel that is good to break structures, to let that the life surprise us. And you have the possibility to connect with other person, with other world. And it's beautiful to realize that we are very different and not so different at the same time. And when we can connect with something which is bigger than us, the feeling is fantastic. It's fantastic because the life is bigger than us. And it's beautiful to understand that the life include us, even if we are not including life, no? Because we have an education [to] separate - you are different than me because I am [a] dancer and you are not- NO. We are the same. And in the moment that we connect with that, we can push boundaries and really realize that the way is be less you and be more the life. Life is when you can see the other and you can see yourself.

LIZ SCRIPT:
In tango and in life, there's the strangest comfort in having an agenda. It's like we think if we focus exclusively on getting from point A to point B, we can just opt out of the unexpected. It takes courage to surrender to the mystery and dialogue of the in-between, to be fully present in the transitions. But if we can manage it, we may discover new paths and possibilities - and we'll certainly open ourselves to greater connection with others.

At the end of our interview, Juan and I switched to his native language, Spanish, for a few minutes. Juan may have his doubts about words. But for me, there's poetry here. I've tried to paraphrase in English as unobtrusively as possible.

JUAN:
De lo que puedo hablar es de esas cosas que para mi están entremedio de A y B. Y si...esas son las cosas que me interesan. Entonces-
[LIZ PARAPHRASE] What I can talk about are these things between A and B. That's what interests me.

Yo creo que eso es la esencia.
[LIZ PARAPHRASE] I believe that's the essence. 

Y si uno vive su esencia, no importa en qué idioma hables, o si tenés muy pocas palabras o muchas...yo creo que llega.
[LIZ PARAPHRASE] And if you live your essence, it doesn't matter what language you speak, or if you have few words or many. The essence comes through.

Porque tampoco es que "vengo a dar un mensaje" - no tengo nada para decir. Simplemente vivo mi esencia y trato de compartirla con [quienes estén] interesados y por eso digo que es un honor.
[LIZ PARAPHRASE] Because it's not like "I've come to deliver a message." I don't have anything to say. I live my essence and try to share it with those who are interested. And that's why I say it's an honor.

Me gustaría conocer tu esencia, que bastante la conozco porque te- hemos hablado mucho, hemos compartido mucho y hemos bailado mucho también.
[LIZ PARAPHRASE] I'd like to know your essence. And I already do somewhat, because we've talked, shared, and danced a lot. 

Y eso es muy lindo y se siente- ahi hay una ida y vuelta de cosas que no son verbales. Porque la palabra es muy limitante, aunque hables muy bien, excelentemente un idioma.
[LIZ PARAPHRASE] And that's lovely, because you can feel an ebb and flow of nonverbal things. Because words are limiting, even if you speak a language at an incredible level.

La palabra "casa," no? La palabra "home" no es lo mismo para vos y para mi. Y cuando los dos hablamos de "home" damos por sentado que estamos hablando de lo mismo y quizás no es el mismo home el tuyo y el mio. Y en el abrazo del tango es lo mismo - "la conexión con el corazón" - y quizás son palabras nada más...cuando sucede, es maravillosa y excede la palabra.
[LIZ PARAPHRASE] When we say the word "home," we assume we mean the same thing. But maybe home isn't the same for me and for you. Same with the tango embrace. "The connection of the heart" may just be words. But when it happens, it's amazing, and it transcends words.

Y yo tengo momentos grabados en mi ser de bailes con personas que quizás ni siquiera son mis parejas de trabajo ni de vida ni de nada-
[LIZ PARAPHRASE] I have moments recorded in my being of dancing with people who might not be my partners in work, life, or anything.

-pero son momentos de un calibre, de una fuerza, de una intensidad que vale la pena vivir solo para llegar a ese punto.
[LIZ PARAPHRASE] But the moments are of a caliber, a force and intensity that makes life worth living simply to arrive at that point.

Yo tengo tandas grabadas en mi ser de- con gente de Washington, con gente de otros países, con gente argentina tambien. De otro sexo, de otra identidad, de diferentes edades y-
[LIZ PARAPHRASE] I have dances recorded in my being with people from Washington, from other countries, from Argentina - of different sexes, identities, and ages.

-y cuando se da esa comunicación no verbal pero fluida y profunda entre todo esta cosa que somos, esta mezcla de cuerpo y mente y corazón y alma, es maravilloso, es maravilloso. Para mi ahí vale la pena haber vivido. 
[LIZ PARAPHRASE] And when this nonverbal, fluid, profound communication happens between all of what we are - this blend of body, mind, heart, and soul - it's marvelous. For me, it makes it worth it to have lived.

LIZ SCRIPT:
Here's to embracing the in-between and letting life surprise us.

Thanks to Juan and to Sónico, whose interpretation of "A Luis Luchi," by Eduardo Rovira, is featured in this episode.